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some questions/experiences

Hello.

My name is Sebastian. I have been following John Sherman for some time now, from the Netherlands. I saw him on YouTube, and am reading "Look at Yourself".

I took a look at myself, as described by John. First thing that I noticed is that this is more authentic than a lot of Advaitic Self-Inquiry, where I subconsciously look for an 'absence' of self, or I look for a spaciousness. When I took this fresh new look at me as a person, as I sitting here, there was a tremendous feeling of individuality with the whole persona thing going on. Can anyone give me any feedback on this experience?

Second, and this still occurs, is when I feel into the feeling of being me, and recollect memories from the past, simple memories of me as a child sitting in front of the tv, what has always been the same is being felt especially in the heart. Again, any feedback on this experience?

Another question. I have followed the 'headless way' of Douglas Harding for a long time. I find some similarities with John & Carla's work. Does anyone have experience with the headless seeing, and can one make a comparisson there?

With this comes my last sharing of experience for now; I feel a dread that this what is being offered in the end will again disappoint me. Another path, another promise. I feel dreadful about the idea of throwing myself on these tracks, devote myself to this for some years, and then realize I have been missing out on life altogether, while my deepest wish is just to be fulfilled, not only for myself but also as a father to my 10 month old son.

I would be very grateful if someone could comment on this.

All the best,

From the Netherlands,

Sebastian

Dear Sebastian

I don't want to "play the expert" here, but there are some comments I'd like to make.

First to your last point, the fear of being disappointed again in the end: I think it's about two years now since I first heard from John and Carla and the "looking" is "with me" since then. I don't exaggerate when I say that it changed my life. Not in its outer form. In a way, everything is the same, but the underlying fear of life is gone. Of course I don't know, whether it will come back at some point in the future, but for the last few month, I was and am closer to life than I ever was. Not "peace and everything is easy", hard things still hard, stupid things still stupid but the underlying threat of being at stake has gone. (I have posted two reports in this forum what and how it worked for me).

Your first and second point: I can't comment on that. According to John, the way it takes is very individual. I myself give not much importance to the "experiences". They change all the time anyway. The only thing that doesn't change is you ;-))

Douglas Harding: I read a lot of his writings and did the "experiments" for quite some time. He's a wonderful Englishman with a very authentic and humorous approach. In the last two years I lost interest in his approach (as in all the other "spiritual books"), not because I think it's "wrong", but because the "looking" does all for me I was ever looking for. Douglas Hardings approach to look at the "first person singular present tense" points of course into the right direction - how could it not - but it tends to construct a whole universe of thoughts and theories, I just lost interest a bit, it sounds all so complex and complicated and the "looking" is such a simple act (being not much of a "theoretical mind" this is exactly what I needed).

Finally: as I said in the beginning: I don't want to "play the knowing one" here, but I can assure you, that "the looking" will "bring you home" and it will give your 10 month old son a sane and loving father.

All the best into your life

Thomas Kueng from Switzerland

Thanks, Thomas. I appreciated your answers to Sebastian. I, too, have found that the "headless way" is a confusing voyage into distraction and abstraction. Just the simple looking at how it feels to be me seems to calm the fears and doubts. It is becoming easier to connect with what I feel like, and easier to feel what I feel like. However, life is not easier, and I still have residual nagging doubts from the years of spiritual seeking. But, somehow, the pain of life feels less problematic. The looking is slowly and surely working. I still often feel like I'm at stake, but I can recognize when I'm feeling this way now, and I can see that I am not affected by feeling at stake. This seeing is itself helping me to see that I'm not at stake! And like you say, Thomas, I am seeing over and over again how I am indeed the only thing that does not change! Good news indeed. Keep looking, Sebastian. Just look and see that you are not affected by the dread (regardless of what the dread is about).

Jenny

Thanks to both Jenny and Thomas for describing, with incredible similarity, the nature of my "journey" to this point. I, too, began my search with the work of Douglas Harding and, when I discovered John Sherman, I wrote to him about the experience. John replied, in a beautiful e-mail, that he was familiar with the "headless" way and it gave him a "frisson" of delight (yeah, I had to look it up, too!). But, he stated, only the seeing of your true nature, as described so well by both of you, will ultimately resolve the issue of separation and identity, healing the fundamental wound of being human. Since then, despite many spiritual temptations and frequent every day problems associated with being alive, I've attempted to do the "looking" solely and relentlessly. Progress appears slow, but others seem to see changes in me that I myself don't really notice. Incidentally, when I texted to John: "How can one look for one's nature if there is no 'person'", he suggested that I avoid metaphysical puzzles and simply focus on the looking, realizing, despite philosophical distractions, that I am always and forever HERE. So, at least for now, I'm putting all my "eggs" into the basket of self-inquiry.

Namaste,

Don

Hi Sebastian:

Ditto to everything that has been said. I too have found this work to be, dare I say it, life changing. I have been with John for about a year and I find myself situated in my life in a way that I never dreamed possible. There can still be great turmoil in the life with many real stressors (illness in the family, teenagers in crisis etc) but, oddly enough, I am okay in a fundamental sense and even feeling grateful for having the privilege to be an audience to all of it. I also have found that my responses to these stressful situations have been less informed by neurotic fear which I attribute to the looking.

The fact that you are doing whatever you can to find a way to go sane, be it with John's approach or any other is, in itself, a gift to your child. There are so many parents who have no interest in this sort of thing. Your desire to break free is a wonderful example to give a child. My 18 year old son has been going through a very difficult time recently.Over the past year I had mentioned John"s suggestion to him. I have not asked him directly if he had taken up the act but I suspect he has tried it. Just last week he said to me," I don't understand how people my age don't just gasp at the wonder and beauty of life every time they just open their eyes and look around".

I believe with all my heart that you are on the right track in pursuing this work with John.

With kind regards

Paul

looking, doubts, questions, parenting

Hello Sebastian,

I could relate to your post. I started "looking" about 4 years ago, and it's only been in the last 2 weeks that I can tell you without a doubt that it will rid you of the fear of life. And even now, this is only the beginning of the unraveling. My only comment on your first question is the same as someone else's: everyone's experience is different - I wouldn't make too much of any feelings that come up from having looked at yourself. They're all after the moment of looking, so they don't make any difference, although I guess it's good if it makes you inspired to have renewed energy to keep looking at yourself.

The second question--I was just at the retreat, and I heard (including from myself) 3 or 4 different reports about where in the body people observe the target of looking. For me, sometimes it feels like it's in my head, and sometimes it feels like it's more in my torso, so, see above re: it's a feeling that's passed.

Douglas Harding--I liked his point of view because it was original and just based on his observation, and the fact that you can't see your own eyes or head is just obvious once he points it out. But his suggestions didn't have any effect on me; they seemed kind of gimmicky compared to the practical advice to look at yourself. All I can tell you is that for some reason I stuck to the looking instead of getting out toilet paper rolls to look through, and it works.

Ditto what Paul said about the fact that you're at least aiming towards sanity consciously, which makes you already a better parent. I have been parenting almost the whole time I've been on this (*&(^% spiritual path. I'm counting on the looking to finish its work and make me infinitely patient and wise with my wild children (LOL). But seriously, i can tell you that the approach outlined in handinhandparenting [link removed] goes along really well with this work or practice, because it's simple and at its essence, it only involves one thing - listening. It gives me practical ways as a parent to give my children space to be themselves without getting any cultural crap aka societal baggage/neuroses.

If by any chance you ever hear or see the retreat from this year, you will find out that I replied to you because I want you to know you're not alone: I'm the one crying about how stupidly long this quest is taking and how I cannot bank on any practice saving me anymore after doing this for so long. That is still true, but honestly, the next day, I could see that neither my skepticism, longing, hope, hopelessness, impatience or desperation were ever going to affect me. I'm just here. And because I'm incapable of latching on to little triumphs like that after being burned before, I just keep looking at the one thing I know is here, myself.

I wish you well! Love, Jamie

Hi Sebastian!

Regarding your last point "another path, another promise". I recognize the feeling from my own life. My sense is that you don’t need to worry about that. It will fall away on its own accord, it’s just part of the seeking.

Maybe this statement is pointless to you but this is not another path, it’s you.

And with this not being another path you don’t have to worry about it beeing the wrong one.

My sense is that you really don’t need a path to be you.

Just keep doing the looking and forget about all the teachings, paths and teachers. It’s a lot easier that way!

/Rickard

Thank you all very much for your replies. I am very grateful.

I mentioned before that I come from "following" the headless way for some years. since I met John's work by accident I did the looking on and off, not being very devoted to it because I more or less put my effort in Seeing the headless way.

My experience now is that even though I feel love for the headless way, because it's very fascinating and douglas harding presented material that you can use for a lifetime, the looking has naturally become the focuss of my life. To need all that feels like a kind of loss, because philosophically I am pretty empty handed.

For now, the results are that I am more and more authentic. and this feels very very good. A "by-product" is also that I at times feel lots of anger. And I mean true anger, energy. Not violent, not agressive. But this raw activity, pulling me out of a passive mindset. I feel I have catching up to do after years of resting in nothingness. I feel this is temporary and has to do with the looking.

First question: I feel that the looking is an ongoing thing and that it greatly improves my communication with other people. It's not better or more loving per se, but, like I mentioned before, more authentic. Can it be a trap for me to put my faith on the looking by these results? What do you think?

Second question: I have been in life-threatening situations before, and could rely on spiritual teachings for comfort. Is there anyone out there, maybe working in the military, who can share their experience of looking? Does it in any way improve skills, handle fears, etc? In other words, when things become really 'real', what does the looking mean to you?

Third question: in the light of the looking, what place do different therapies have in life?

I hopesome of you can relate to these questions. I have lots and lots of them. In the meantime, I'll keep up the looking. Thank you all for helping me before,

Sebastian

Hi Sebastian!

I'll give your questions a shot, maybe my views are helpful and maybe not. smily

First question:

I don't think that it is a trap to put your faith in the looking to give you these results. But I do think that it does not matter if you do it or if you don't. In other words the looking will work in the way it works no matter what you think about it. Your belief about the workings of it is not god or bad, right or wrong, it's just simply beside the point.

Second question:

I don't find the looking in itself to be comforting when something comes up. It's more like the desperate need for comfort is no longer so desperate. When something hard or painful happens I might act panicky out of habit but I don't really believe it. The looking is not a quick fix for a temporary perceived problem. It's not about raking leafs and it's not even about cutting down the tree. In other words it's not about damage control. Damage control is all about the fear that life is out to get you and the looking is the end of that.

Third question:

In the light of the looking different therapies are beside the point. Therapies are about damage control and the looking is not. This does not mean that you should not engage in therapies that you are drawn to it just means that they pertain to a different level. Do whatever you are drawn to and leave when you are so inclined.

I do believe that you already have all you need to succeed in this and what ever I can say is the equivalent of patting you on the back!

Good luck!

/Rickard

"But, he stated, only the seeing of your true nature, as described so well by both of you, will ultimately resolve the issue of separation and identity, healing the fundamental wound of being human."

Don, do you mean that John said that one can't see his/her true nature in the "headless" way? I'm very curious about that.

Rickard

first question:

I don't think that it is a trap to put your faith in the looking to give you these results. But I do think that it does not matter if you do it or if you don't. In other words the looking will work in the way it works no matter what you think about it. Your belief about the workings of it is not god or bad, right or wrong, it's just simply beside the point.

Second question:

I don't find the looking in it self to be comforting when something comes up. It's more like the desperate need for comfort is no longer so desperate. When something hard or painful happens I might act panicky out of habit but I don't really believe it. The looking is not a quick fix for a temporary perceived problem. It's not about raking leafs and it's not even about cutting down the tree. In other words it's not about damage control. Damage control is all about the fear that life is out to get you and the looking is the end of that.

Third question:

In the light of the looking different therapies are beside the point. Therapies are about damage control and the looking is not. This does not mean that you should not engage in therapies that you are drawn to it just means that they pertain to a different level. Do whatever you are drawn to and leave when you are so inclined.

Hi Rickard,

I found your reply very helpful, so thank you! Some of the recent posts have brought up greater fear that I'm not "getting it right," meaning that I'm not getting life itself right, and so I am left feeling the need to scramble in an effort to do damage control. There is still the pervasive fear that life is out to get me, and if I screw up any aspect of it at all, I will pay for it somehow.

Your reply reminds me of why I was so attracted to John's teaching in the first place: I just wanted validation that I am fine right now the way I am, and the thoughts/emotions/circumstances are out of my control and are beside the point. Also, it was such a relief to not have to worry about my "stuff" anymore, to scramble around trying to get all my ducks in a row and tie up all loose ends (as if any of that were possible, since life never ends, and so how could one tie up loose ends anyway if there are no ends to tie up?). And lastly, I was so glad to discover me! John showed me myself.

I guess fear likes being in front and center stage. I picture a white page, with a huge FEAR taking up the whole page. But I'm the "white space," so without me, the fear has no existence at all. I find comfort in realizing that I'm still here despite the big fear written all over me.

Jenny

Questions

Questions

Jenny

I guess fear likes being in front and center stage. I picture a white page, with a huge FEAR taking up the whole page. But I'm the "white space," so without me, the fear has no existence at all. I find comfort in realizing that I'm still here despite the big fear written all over me.

Jenny

Hi Jenny,

Great analogy. I have felt fear so great it seemed to cover me completely, like there was nothing there but fear. Now, it still appears on the page but not with the same meaning or importance. Lera Jane

Jenny

Hi Rickard,

I guess fear likes being in front and center stage. I picture a white page, with a huge FEAR taking up the whole page. But I'm the "white space," so without me, the fear has no existence at all. I find comfort in realizing that I'm still here despite the big fear written all over me.

Jenny

Hi Jenny!

Im happy that you found my response helpful! smily

The hugeness of the fear that you talk about, in my view, is just how it is perceived in the mind. The white paper is everything and the fear is just a dot. It is perceived as huge because it's perceived as an object and to the old mind pattern an object has infinitely more reality then the background and is there fore deemed more important. This is why the mind can't help fiddling with it (putting it in center stage) and this is why it is seen as huge in competence to the "unimportant" background.

That is just old programing and it will continue until it doesn't anymore.

What's important in al this is you and you can't fail in being you, so just relax! smily

/Rickard

Showing Up

Showing Up

Rickard

What's important in al this is you and you can't fail in being you, so just relax! smily

Hey Rickard,

I love that - no, I can't fail at being me! It's so obvious, it's easy to miss!

What I have failed at is showing up for me! Last year, I finally admitted to myself that I felt abandoned by God in this separate, faulty, and unloveable body. That was the original wound I suffered as a small child, and it had been festering ever since. Last year, I engaged in a lot of therapeutic activities (mostly psychotherapy, alone and with a therapist), and those really, really helped. Then when I discovered the looking, I was able to recognize myself at last. Now, through the looking, and maybe with the help of some more self-therapy, I am learning to show up for myself in all ways, so that I can fully inhabit this body and this life. Fully inhabiting means no fear of any of it. That's what the looking is intended to do - make it possible and even welcoming fully inhabiting my body and my life, without fear of any of it. It doesn't mean not having any emotions or thoughts, but fully inhabiting all emotions and thoughts that come. Fully human, fully alive.

So, I can see what John means when he says life never ends. It's not about coming to some glorious finish, where I don't experience the messiness of life. It's about reveling in the messiness and interacting with it totally. I can't do that until I am able to completely accept and revel in my humanity. And for me, that means giving the looking some help through a little more therapy. I want to show up for myself in all ways and be there. I thought God and everyone else abandoned me - and then I realized, I abandoned me too. Now it's time for me to learn how to show up for myself in all ways. And relax into that!

thanks so much Rickard, what a delight you are!

Jenny

Just to be clear Jenny, what goes is not the natural, organic fear that arises naturally in response to the perception of actual threat, it is neurotic and obsessive fear that vanishes, or more precisely, fails to show up.

I'd also look again at the notion that you have "...failed at showing up for me!" No matter how good or bad you might think yourself to be at being fully human, I promise that you have always fully inhabited this body and life, and the day will come, sooner than you think, when these ideas of disconnection and the correction of disconnection will be forgotten.

That's not to say that there are not therapeutic measures that might be useful for some during the recovery. But for me, the most helpful, actually the only helpful thing I did during the recovery was to incorporate simple mindfulness meditation into my day-to-day life.

Mindfulness meditation of the sort I recommend will do nothing at all to reshape your life, or even your understanding of your life, but it will gradually strengthen your skill at working with the power of concentrated attention. It will sharpen your discernment, and most of all, it will reveal to you the natural comprehensive awareness of the wild and unpredictable experience of human life that is your nature.

I also would suggest that you reread the thread. I just did, and found quite a bit of sanity and intelligence in all the responses. Of course, in the end, quoting Rickard: "...the looking will work in the way it works no matter what you think about it. Your belief about the workings of it is not god or bad, right or wrong, it's just simply beside the point."

As hard as it might be to see now, that is the really good news.

Thanks to all of you who are contributing to this thread, you are doing good work.

John

Jenny, for some reason administration decided not to post my response to your March 25th posting. Sorry. I did try to get back to you. trimpi

John Sherman

I'd also look again at the notion that you have "...failed at showing up for me!" No matter how good or bad you might think yourself to be at being fully human, I promise that you have always fully inhabited this body and life, and the day will come, sooner than you think, when these ideas of disconnection and the correction of disconnection will be forgotten.

Hi John,

I really hope you're right about the part where I've always fully inhabited my body and life - it still feels like I've been disconnected from something about myself, or parts of myself, as long as I can remember, with the exception of the last year.

John Sherman

That's not to say that there are not therapeutic measures that might be useful for some during the recovery. But for me, the most helpful, actually the only helpful thing I did during the recovery was to incorporate simple mindfulness meditation into my day-to-day life.

I do think that therapeutic measures are very useful for those of us with a heavier emotional burden. I don't think I would have recognized myself when I came across your teaching on youtube, if it hadn't been for the intense therapy I had in the months prior to that.

Right now, the sort of mindfulness meditation that appeals to me is to focus on how emotions "feel" in my body. I have done other sorts of mindfulness in the past, so I am familiar with it.

I did re-read the entire thread, and the parts that speak to me the most come from Rickard:

"My sense is that you really don’t need a path to be you."

"Therapies are about damage control and the looking is not."

"What's important in all this is you and you can't fail in being you, so just relax!"

So if I were to put all this together, I would say that:

• Any therapy I do cannot hurt and cannot help me, (even though it feels like it helps the symptoms - and I do get what you mean when you say nothing can hurt me or help me b/c I'm pretty sure I know what "me" is), but sometimes therapy feels good and is helpful to the body/mind unit in the interim - the body/mind unit is convinced it is on some sort of path to wholeness

• There is no path I need take to be fully me - here I am, fully existing now

• There is nothing I need to do to be me, because I am already obviously me

Thanks for your voice of sanity, both to John and Rickard!

Gratefully,

Jenny

trimpi

Jenny, for some reason administration decided not to post my response to your March 25th posting. Sorry. I did try to get back to you. trimpi

Forgive me John.

Was it the posting in the eating disorder thread that you are referring to? If so, I just approved it, and I think it is well said and worth reading by anyone.

I'm going to have to take the time very soon to put together a comprehensive overview of how these forums operate.

I want everybody to understand:

- why they are moderated in the first place;

- what might cause Carla or I to hold off on approving a posting;

- what might cause us not to post it at all.

We also sometimes edit posts and remove outside links and the like, and then approve the edited version.

Carla and I are the only people who moderate the forums. Sometimes, like this last week, the world is so full of things needing immediate attention that we cannot find time to tend to the forums every day.

We read all the postings before approving them.

Carla and I are both grateful for your presence and participation here John.

'preciate it

'preciate it

John Sherman

I'm going to have to take the time very soon to put together a comprehensive overview of how these forums operate.

That would be very much appreciated. Sometimes I don't know if processing is slow or my post has been deleted for censoring reasons. I certainly don't want to put more pressure on John and Carla. God knows they have too much already. But I also don't want to take the time to write an elaborate response if it might be thrown out for unforeseen reasons.

Hi Jenny! Ill give this an other go.

Any good answer is just there to extinguish the question beyond that it has no usefulness. The reason i bring that up is to point to the minds compulsive tendency to seek orientation to find it's way through a mace of it's own device, trough looking for the answer to the next question or in looking to resolve the next painful emotion. The tendency towards orientation seems to be what comprises the structure of the mace. The looking does not necessarily orient you within the mace, the looking is a totally different movement beyond the context of the mace that connects your consciousness back to you, fixing the misunderstanding that is the basis to why the mace is there in the first place.

Although you have made the connection back to you by looking, the walls of the mace are most likely still there. It's like a dead tree, not alive but still standing. Your mind will still try to orient it self from the old rules out of habit, still trying to fix itself although it is no longer necessary.

This is why i see mindfulness meditation to be quite helpful.

It seems to me that mindfulness meditation does not operate within the minds mace so it gives you a respite from it. It seems to moves the force of personality out from the mace and the only place where it still resides is where it never can not be, as you.

This seems to help a lot with easing the suffering and it might even hurry the trees decomposition process along.

Looking at emotions within the body has it's benefits to but look for your self and see if it doesn't operate within the mace. It's not bad to do it and it can be quite helpful some times. But it can also be a way for the mind to keep running in circles once it's served it's usefulness.

I would like to add that i did not like mindfulness meditation much before I had done the looking. And I like you preferred to look at my emotions and it did help me a lot, but it has it's limitations. I find that mindfulness meditation comes easier now and Im actually eager to do it! I think that is because I can see the great usefulness in it and that is not only because of the looking but also because i spent so many years looking at emotions and bodily sensations that it made the contrast apparent.

I do not think that you should end your practice, do what you are drawn to do. But I would recommend you to keep mindfulness meditation as a possibility and maybe you will find your self adding it to your practice again!

Much love

Rickard

A good answer extinguishes the question and the answer both.. smily

Dear Rickard,

Yes, I see the value in what you are saying - thoughts and emotions are endlessly occurring, so one can only spend so much time in that maze. Bringing my attention back to the unchanging aspect of me "grounds" me back to myself. Thank you!

Jenny

Rickard

A good answer extinguishes the question and the answer both.. smily

With a good question, you don't need an answer.

As to your previous post, I like your metaphor of the dead tree for the mind structure. There is no wind in the mind, I have said previously. It's dead space up or around there, and I agree it's like a maze where you can easily get lost. The trick is to keep the gears of transition greased, so that you can easily move out of the maze back into presence with the slightest of movement. We transition all the time; we just don't put a name to it or consider it an activity since it's so commonplace and ordinary. I also agree that the looking is a stand-alone, independent exercise that is on a different plane than normal mental activity. There is no processing involved, which makes it hard for some people who are used to processing and interpreting that which finds a perch there. I've stopped meditating per se years ago, but if it helps one to stay rooted in the present moment for as long as possible, I'd say there was value in it. Incidentally, when I do the looking, I check in first to make sure I'm actually here and not hanging out on a branch of the dead tree. trimpi

trimpi

With a good question, you don't need an answer.

You are so right!

Using my own statement "A good answer extinguishes the question and the answer both" as a measurement, my previous posting wasn't weary good and quite beside the point. Not that there even was a question... smily

Besides my rather weird angle on mindfulness meditation it's usefulness clearly lies in the increased ability to focus the mind. Simply a fine tool to have!

trimpi

We transition all the time; we just don't put a name to it or consider it an activity since it's so commonplace and ordinary.

It seems to me that any transition is just the movement of life in which I am the constant.

Language is a virus from outer space but still It's nice to talk to you guys!

"It seems to me that any transition is just the movement of life in which I am the constant."

I won't disagree with that statement, but everything that occurs is a movement of life, so to minimalize transitioning as "just" a movement is not good business, in my opinion. "I am the constant" is the meat and potatoes of your statement. What I'd like to point out is that there is a benefit to paying attention to those shifts from our thinking minds to the actuality of our being here, experiencing whatever is in front of us. We always seem to settle on the outcome but not the process. I think we can develop a sharper focus by seeing what its like as we go back and forth, in and out. The "out" is out of presence into the thinking mind and its endless maze. trimpi

some questions/experiences

some questions/experiences

trimpi

What I'd like to point out is that there is a benefit to paying attention to those shifts from our thinking minds to the actuality of our being here, experiencing whatever is in front of us. We always seem to settle on the outcome but not the process. I think we can develop a sharper focus by seeing what its like as we go back and forth, in and out. The "out" is out of presence into the thinking mind and its endless maze. trimpi

I have found it helpful to consciously practice these transitions as John has suggested by saying, HERE (as in I AM HERE as if my name is Here.) and experiencing the shift; doing this as I am going about my daily routines. Lera Jane

 

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